diamond geezer

 Saturday, January 06, 2024

In the last week TfL have refused to answer two freedom of Information requests both asking the same thing. How deep are Crossrail stations?

One was from a geology student at UCL attempting to complete an air quality project and the other just wanted a data dump.
I am looking for the platform depth for each station on the London Underground and Overground, in meters, above and below sea level. I am seeking the same data from FOI-0493-2223, including the Elizabeth line platforms and the London Overground platforms.
But TfL said no. They didn't have a problem with Underground stations because they've already published data for the depth of Underground stations, they did that in 2022 (and indeed in 2011). If you want confirmation that the platforms at Pinner are 53m above sea level and at Covent Garden 14m below, they're perfectly happy to tell you. As obscure spreadsheets go, that one's nerd level. But they won't add the Overground or Crossrail to the list, they point blank refuse.
Disclosure of this information could pose a risk by providing information to those who may wish harm to the network. This may include sites which could be targets of sabotage, risking the physical safety of staff or information whose disclosure might have an adverse effect on public health. The safety and security of the public who travel on and the employees who work on our network is something we take very seriously.
TfL are quite within their rights to restrict this under Section 38(1)(b) of the Freedom of Information Act, and they're doing it because Crossrail is regulated differently to London Underground.
The Elizabeth Line is classified as a Railway (Heavy Rail) whereas London Underground is a light rail transit system, as such the regulation placed on both Rail for London Infrastructure (RfLI) and MTR Elizabeth Line (MTREL) is different. In brief this means that Heavy Rail operators/infrastructure owners have higher standards to adhere to within the National Railways Security Programme (NRSP) than London Underground who apply disclosure considerations in accordance with our own London Underground Security Programme rather than Government mandated security.
They say they don't believe the purpose of the FoI was in any way terrorist-related, but minimising risk takes precedence over "the interests of a select few individuals or transport enthusiast groups".

But this is hardly top secret information, the data must be out there somewhere. So I asked myself "OK, how deep are all the Crossrail stations? I'm sure I can work this out."



I started by going for a ride on a purple train. I started at Stratford where the station is above ground, and used an app on my phone to display the height above sea level. It told me the Crossrail platforms were 8.8m above sea level, then 8.9m, then 8.6m - the number never really settled down. Also I was holding my phone in my hand which technically wasn't at platform level, maybe almost a metre above, so the actual result was more like 8m. Then I realised I could check in the official TfL Underground spreadsheet because Central line trains stop immediately alongside, and that said 7.2m instead. So my app wasn't very accurate.

Also once my train entered the tunnel at Pudding Mill my phone stopped being able to register heights and just stuck on the number it had said when we entered the portal. This continued all the way through to Paddington and beyond, even when I managed to get 4G or a wifi signal, so I realised measuring it myself wasn't going to work. No GPS, no data.

So I searched on Google instead. Things were a lot less secretive during Crossrail's construction process, back when press coverage was all about amplifying how amazing the engineering was. But TfL have summarily deleted the Crossrail website since, every last page of it, so I had to rely on other websites and how they reported things during the years of construction. It proved surprisingly difficult.

The most useful webpage I found was an opinion piece from the Architects Journal published in May 2016. The author was mostly unimpressed by the station architecture but ended with a list of facts including the depth of every central station below ground level. So this sounds definitive.
Depth below ground
Paddington: 20m
Bond Street: 28m
Tottenham Court Road: 24m
Farringdon: 25m
Liverpool Street: 34m
Whitechapel: 30m
Canary Wharf: 28m
Custom House: above ground
Woolwich: 14m
Abbey Wood: above ground
Several websites confirm that Liverpool Street is indeed the deepest Crossrail station below ground level, because superlatives are more widely publicised than individual figures. Woolwich is the subterranean station closest to the surface, and yes those escalators at Whitechapel and Bond Street really are really long.

But that isn't the data the FoI petitioners requested. They didn't want distances below ground level because these are very much at the mercy of contours on the surface which may have no correlation to the tunnels below. What they actually asked for was distance below sea level, and that's even harder to Google for. You can't even calculate it from the depth below ground level without knowing the elevation of the station with some degree of precision.

I didn't manage to find a table or a list of distances below sea level, or even a convincing individual statistic. I did find a good cross section of the route showing all the ups and downs, but it didn't have a vertical scale so it was no use for measurement. Eventually I found a proper schematic cross section on the learninglegacy.crossrail.co.uk site, which is a massive info dump left behind in the hope future civil engineers would find it useful. Here's a jpg of the cross section and here's an enormous pdf.



This cross section shows the tunnel passing through the bedrock, plus the various station boxes and a vertical scale measuring mATD, or 'metres Above Tunnel Datum'. Crossrail (and TfL) set sea level as 100 mATD, because this helps avoid working with negative numbers. Using this scale 120 mATD is 20 metres above sea level and 80 mATD is 20 metres below. No official platform measurements are given on the diagram so all I could do with the map was get a virtual ruler out. I measured the vertical distance between 100 mATD and the station platform and these are the results I got.
Distance above or below sea level
Paddington: 5m above
Bond Street: 3m below
Tottenham Court Road: 2m above
Farringdon: 15m below
Liverpool Street: 23m below
Whitechapel: 14m below
Canary Wharf: 19m below
Woolwich: 7m below
This confirms Liverpool Street is the deepest Crossrail station below sea level, as well as the deepest below ground level. Canary Wharf is unexpectedly second. Meanwhile Tottenham Court Road turns out to be just above sea level, not below, because the West End is quite a lot higher than the Thames. Only six Crossrail stations are in fact below sea level, assuming I've got this right. None of this materially affects national security.

The smallprint on the cross section says "Do not scale off these drawings. The information shown is only indicative and should not be relied upon." Also there's no guarantee my measuring or calculations are correct, so don't take this as gospel. But it looks right, unless you tell me different, and in the absence of a successful FoI it's the best data we've got. If TfL won't tell you something, work it out for yourself.


<< click for Newer posts

click for Older Posts >>


click to return to the main page


...or read more in my monthly archives
Jan24  Feb24  Mar24  Apr24  May24
Jan23  Feb23  Mar23  Apr23  May23  Jun23  Jul23  Aug23  Sep23  Oct23  Nov23  Dec23
Jan22  Feb22  Mar22  Apr22  May22  Jun22  Jul22  Aug22  Sep22  Oct22  Nov22  Dec22
Jan21  Feb21  Mar21  Apr21  May21  Jun21  Jul21  Aug21  Sep21  Oct21  Nov21  Dec21
Jan20  Feb20  Mar20  Apr20  May20  Jun20  Jul20  Aug20  Sep20  Oct20  Nov20  Dec20
Jan19  Feb19  Mar19  Apr19  May19  Jun19  Jul19  Aug19  Sep19  Oct19  Nov19  Dec19
Jan18  Feb18  Mar18  Apr18  May18  Jun18  Jul18  Aug18  Sep18  Oct18  Nov18  Dec18
Jan17  Feb17  Mar17  Apr17  May17  Jun17  Jul17  Aug17  Sep17  Oct17  Nov17  Dec17
Jan16  Feb16  Mar16  Apr16  May16  Jun16  Jul16  Aug16  Sep16  Oct16  Nov16  Dec16
Jan15  Feb15  Mar15  Apr15  May15  Jun15  Jul15  Aug15  Sep15  Oct15  Nov15  Dec15
Jan14  Feb14  Mar14  Apr14  May14  Jun14  Jul14  Aug14  Sep14  Oct14  Nov14  Dec14
Jan13  Feb13  Mar13  Apr13  May13  Jun13  Jul13  Aug13  Sep13  Oct13  Nov13  Dec13
Jan12  Feb12  Mar12  Apr12  May12  Jun12  Jul12  Aug12  Sep12  Oct12  Nov12  Dec12
Jan11  Feb11  Mar11  Apr11  May11  Jun11  Jul11  Aug11  Sep11  Oct11  Nov11  Dec11
Jan10  Feb10  Mar10  Apr10  May10  Jun10  Jul10  Aug10  Sep10  Oct10  Nov10  Dec10 
Jan09  Feb09  Mar09  Apr09  May09  Jun09  Jul09  Aug09  Sep09  Oct09  Nov09  Dec09
Jan08  Feb08  Mar08  Apr08  May08  Jun08  Jul08  Aug08  Sep08  Oct08  Nov08  Dec08
Jan07  Feb07  Mar07  Apr07  May07  Jun07  Jul07  Aug07  Sep07  Oct07  Nov07  Dec07
Jan06  Feb06  Mar06  Apr06  May06  Jun06  Jul06  Aug06  Sep06  Oct06  Nov06  Dec06
Jan05  Feb05  Mar05  Apr05  May05  Jun05  Jul05  Aug05  Sep05  Oct05  Nov05  Dec05
Jan04  Feb04  Mar04  Apr04  May04  Jun04  Jul04  Aug04  Sep04  Oct04  Nov04  Dec04
Jan03  Feb03  Mar03  Apr03  May03  Jun03  Jul03  Aug03  Sep03  Oct03  Nov03  Dec03
 Jan02  Feb02  Mar02  Apr02  May02  Jun02  Jul02 Aug02  Sep02  Oct02  Nov02  Dec02 

jack of diamonds
Life viewed from London E3

» email me
» follow me on twitter
» follow the blog on Twitter
» follow the blog on RSS

» my flickr photostream

twenty blogs
our bow
arseblog
ian visits
londonist
broken tv
blue witch
on london
the great wen
edith's streets
spitalfields life
linkmachinego
round the island
wanstead meteo
christopher fowler
the greenwich wire
bus and train user
ruth's coastal walk
round the rails we go
london reconnections
from the murky depths

quick reference features
Things to do in Outer London
Things to do outside London
London's waymarked walks
Inner London toilet map
20 years of blog series
The DG Tour of Britain
London's most...

read the archive
May24
Apr24  Mar24  Feb24  Jan24
Dec23  Nov23  Oct23  Sep23
Aug23  Jul23  Jun23  May23
Apr23  Mar23  Feb23  Jan23
Dec22  Nov22  Oct22  Sep22
Aug22  Jul22  Jun22  May22
Apr22  Mar22  Feb22  Jan22
Dec21  Nov21  Oct21  Sep21
Aug21  Jul21  Jun21  May21
Apr21  Mar21  Feb21  Jan21
Dec20  Nov20  Oct20  Sep20
Aug20  Jul20  Jun20  May20
Apr20  Mar20  Feb20  Jan20
Dec19  Nov19  Oct19  Sep19
Aug19  Jul19  Jun19  May19
Apr19  Mar19  Feb19  Jan19
Dec18  Nov18  Oct18  Sep18
Aug18  Jul18  Jun18  May18
Apr18  Mar18  Feb18  Jan18
Dec17  Nov17  Oct17  Sep17
Aug17  Jul17  Jun17  May17
Apr17  Mar17  Feb17  Jan17
Dec16  Nov16  Oct16  Sep16
Aug16  Jul16  Jun16  May16
Apr16  Mar16  Feb16  Jan16
Dec15  Nov15  Oct15  Sep15
Aug15  Jul15  Jun15  May15
Apr15  Mar15  Feb15  Jan15
Dec14  Nov14  Oct14  Sep14
Aug14  Jul14  Jun14  May14
Apr14  Mar14  Feb14  Jan14
Dec13  Nov13  Oct13  Sep13
Aug13  Jul13  Jun13  May13
Apr13  Mar13  Feb13  Jan13
Dec12  Nov12  Oct12  Sep12
Aug12  Jul12  Jun12  May12
Apr12  Mar12  Feb12  Jan12
Dec11  Nov11  Oct11  Sep11
Aug11  Jul11  Jun11  May11
Apr11  Mar11  Feb11  Jan11
Dec10  Nov10  Oct10  Sep10
Aug10  Jul10  Jun10  May10
Apr10  Mar10  Feb10  Jan10
Dec09  Nov09  Oct09  Sep09
Aug09  Jul09  Jun09  May09
Apr09  Mar09  Feb09  Jan09
Dec08  Nov08  Oct08  Sep08
Aug08  Jul08  Jun08  May08
Apr08  Mar08  Feb08  Jan08
Dec07  Nov07  Oct07  Sep07
Aug07  Jul07  Jun07  May07
Apr07  Mar07  Feb07  Jan07
Dec06  Nov06  Oct06  Sep06
Aug06  Jul06  Jun06  May06
Apr06  Mar06  Feb06  Jan06
Dec05  Nov05  Oct05  Sep05
Aug05  Jul05  Jun05  May05
Apr05  Mar05  Feb05  Jan05
Dec04  Nov04  Oct04  Sep04
Aug04  Jul04  Jun04  May04
Apr04  Mar04  Feb04  Jan04
Dec03  Nov03  Oct03  Sep03
Aug03  Jul03  Jun03  May03
Apr03  Mar03  Feb03  Jan03
Dec02  Nov02  Oct02  Sep02
back to main page

the diamond geezer index
2023 2022
2021 2020 2019 2018 2017
2016 2015 2014 2013 2012
2011 2010 2009 2008 2007
2006 2005 2004 2003 2002

my special London features
a-z of london museums
E3 - local history month
greenwich meridian (N)
greenwich meridian (S)
the real eastenders
london's lost rivers
olympic park 2007
great british roads
oranges & lemons
random boroughs
bow road station
high street 2012
river westbourne
trafalgar square
capital numbers
east london line
lea valley walk
olympics 2005
regent's canal
square routes
silver jubilee
unlost rivers
cube routes
Herbert Dip
metro-land
capital ring
river fleet
piccadilly
bakerloo

ten of my favourite posts
the seven ages of blog
my new Z470xi mobile
five equations of blog
the dome of doom
chemical attraction
quality & risk
london 2102
single life
boredom
april fool

ten sets of lovely photos
my "most interesting" photos
london 2012 olympic zone
harris and the hebrides
betjeman's metro-land
marking the meridian
tracing the river fleet
london's lost rivers
inside the gherkin
seven sisters
iceland

just surfed in?
here's where to find...
diamond geezers
flash mob #1  #2  #3  #4
ben schott's miscellany
london underground
watch with mother
cigarette warnings
digital time delay
wheelie suitcases
war of the worlds
transit of venus
top of the pops
old buckenham
ladybird books
acorn antiques
digital watches
outer hebrides
olympics 2012
school dinners
pet shop boys
west wycombe
bletchley park
george orwell
big breakfast
clapton pond
san francisco
thunderbirds
routemaster
children's tv
east enders
trunk roads
amsterdam
little britain
credit cards
jury service
big brother
jubilee line
number 1s
titan arum
typewriters
doctor who
coronation
comments
blue peter
matchgirls
hurricanes
buzzwords
brookside
monopoly
peter pan
starbucks
feng shui
leap year
manbags
bbc three
vision on
piccadilly
meridian
concorde
wembley
islington
ID cards
bedtime
freeview
beckton
blogads
eclipses
letraset
arsenal
sitcoms
gherkin
calories
everest
muffins
sudoku
camilla
london
ceefax
robbie
becks
dome
BBC2
paris
lotto
118
itv